Comments on Ben and Alice: Circumcision: tell me, one more time, why this is ...

Hi, I'm a 23 year old white male in the US. My par...

2008-01-07T01:20:00.000-05:00

Hi, I'm a 23 year old white male in the US. My parents decided not to have me circumcised on recommendation from the nurses at the hospital (it was the early 80s, still some hippies.) Growing up, all of my friends were circumcised and I felt like a bit of an outsider, I was always nervous as hell that somebody would notice while I was peeing at the urinal. I was too worried about letting a girl see it during high school to have any serious relationships (after all, I had heard plenty of girls say how disgusting uncircumcised penises are, even though 99% of them had probably never seen one.) When I did finally get the balls up to tell a girl I was hooking up with, she said that she didn't know the difference, and she has never seemed to mind. Sex is phenomenal, no problems with premature ejaculation (she has multiple orgasms every time we make love) and I am extremely happy that my parents left the decision up to me. In my opinion, if there was no cultural stigma about the whole procedure, there would be no issue. I have never had any problems with infection, odor, or any of the other health problems listed by pro-circumcision advocates who are trying to defend a pointless procedure. Just my two cents.

Thanks for a great post. I will be directing the c...

2007-02-15T15:02:00.000-05:00

Thanks for a great post. I will be directing the curious to it [as I am the mother of two 'intact' boys and will share my opinion when asked] for a better (and more hands on) understanding of the issues surrounding circumcision!

WOW that was a lot of information. And actually ma...

2006-05-30T13:18:00.000-04:00

WOW that was a lot of information. And actually made me kinda horny, at work.

I'll never have kids that I'll need to make this kind of descion myself, but I hope that more people consider these types of opinions when it comes to their own sons.

Hi Ben -
As a fellow Jew who was also uncircum...

2006-05-23T11:16:00.000-04:00

Hi Ben -
As a fellow Jew who was also uncircumcised (until mid-adulthood), I'd like to make a few points - maybe too late for your letter, but for you to keep in mind.

1) Jewish circumcision differs from hospital circumcision in technique and result.

Basically, Jewish circumcision preserves the sensitive inner lining of the foreskin. Only a portion of the outer layer of skin is removed (this is a lot easier to explain to a fellow uncut guy!) The pinkish inner layer of skin gathers in folds behind the head of the penis, and may cup it like an acorn cup. This skin accommodates erection and continues to fulfill its sensory function.

This is in sharp contrast to most hospital circumcisions, in which everything is removed. These are the guys with the same colored skin all the way down to the head. As some posters here have mentioned, often this leads to tightness, torsion, or friction.

So not all circumcisions are alike.

2) Israel has absorbed hundreds of thousands of Soviet emigres, and as a result tens of thousands of adults underwent (Jewish style) circumcision. Israeli doctors used this opportunity to ask the sexual pleasure question - they sent follow-up surveys to several thousand men who underwent circumcision.

The results split evenly into thirds:

1/3 said "now it's better"
1/3 said "now it's worse"
1/3 said "no significant change"

Immediately the pro- and anti- circ forces set out to prove their point using this study.

So the doctors went back and correlated between the response to this question and the reason given for circumcision.

The "now it's worse" group contained almost all the men who were circumcised for external reasons - pressure from peers or girlfriends.

The other 2 groups contained mostly men who were circumcised because they themselves wanted it.

So the nerves between the ears are at least as important as those between the legs...

Shalom and best wishes -

>> groups of adult male volunteers were ...

2006-05-19T10:31:00.000-04:00
>> groups of adult male volunteers were assigned at random to be circumcised or not, and then followed. The circumcised group got 60% fewer HIV infections <<
- - - - -
Those men were NOT at all randomly selected. The circ'd group included the men who were willing to be circ'd and no men who were not willing. Duh. A lot of the men who were willing ot be circ'd were Muslims.

The "scientists" - like Bailey - performing these Mengele-esque amputation experiments on human subjects have long histories of trying to justify circ. Frankly, I don't trust them not to lie.

Circumcsion does NOT prevent AIDS. 1000s of US men who were cut at birth have died of AIDS.

HIS body, HIS decision.

-Ron Low
TLC Tugger, Inc.

It seems like you're right about Muslim circumcisi...

2006-05-15T03:37:00.000-04:00
It seems like you're right about Muslim circumcision -- Wikipedia says:

"The timing of Muslim circumcision varies. Some Muslim communities perform circumcision on the eighth day of life, as with Jews, while others perform the rite later. Turkish, Balkan, rural Egyptians and Central Asian Muslims typically circumcise boys between the ages of six and eleven and the event is viewed communally as a joyous occasion and is celebrated with sweets and feasting. In contrast, Iranian Muslims are typically circumcised in the hospital at birth without much ado. Urban Egyptians, as with many industrialized countries such as the USA, perform the procedure at a hospital."

So it may be small regional minorities that circumcise at puberty, or this may be a few years before puberty. My apologies for using a blanket statement. Thanks for the fact check.

I think you're wrong about the 10-13 age of circum...

2006-05-15T00:09:00.000-04:00
I think you're wrong about the 10-13 age of circumcision for muslims. I can't claim to be up on the the rules, laws and whatnot, but everyone I know (including me) was circumcised at birth. Perhaps you meant North Africa, or Arab, or Persian, or Malaysia/Indonesia, rather than "Muslim". A lot of these things tend to vary by region/culture rather religion or even sect. Something I wish the media at large noted more often.

I am 28 and not circumcised. Around 2 years ago I ...

2006-05-09T08:51:00.000-04:00
I am 28 and not circumcised. Around 2 years ago I converted to Islam. I was very much NOT a virgin before I converted and I am now married to a muslim born woman and live in the UK (im english). Because of the country she comes from (a very strong muslim country) I am very much pressurised to get circumcised, however i have to say i am quite scared about it! My biggest fear is that I will lose part of the sensation in my penis and so lose some of the sexual pleasure i currently can have.

I know Islam STRONGLY recommends circumcision but I would like to know if there are any muslim converts out there that are not circumcised or have been since they converted? I'd love to hear from you, email me at supernashwan77@hotmail.com.

Pro Circumcision? Hey, you are one sick cookie. ...

2006-05-09T06:32:00.000-04:00
Pro Circumcision? Hey, you are one sick cookie. Can't bring yourself to say M U T I L A T I O N ? Sure, you can say it MUTILATION ! You need to invoke the Latin terminology, derision for the opinions of others, fantasies of comparative hygiene and even insist that mutilation is a personal fashion statement in your attempt to justify it but in the end all you achieve is the arrogance that so unashamedly have learned to freely display.

Pro-circumcision.

Reason: cleaner, looks be...

2006-05-09T04:27:00.000-04:00
Pro-circumcision.

Reason: cleaner, looks better and doesn't act as a urine catcher every time a guy goes to the toilet.

Were I female I wouldn't put my mouth anywhere near an uncircumcised one. The term "dick cheese" is a purely uncircumcised occurrance.

There is also the decreased transmission rate with circumcised versus uncircumcised (although safer sex is a far better solution, but well.. what harm does it do to give the guy less chance of catching something, think of it as like innoculation).

For those re-creating their foreskins: get a life.. If you're blaming not enjoying sex on that then you're kidding yourself. But then again: placebo "works" for a lot of people too (but I can't help but think there's a better placebo out there that doesn't involve stretching). Perhaps if you aren't enjoying sex with your partner there's other reasons. Try getting her to do pelvic floor exercises if you want more stimulation.

For those claiming it mentally scars the children for the rest of their lives: bullsh*t, plain and simple. You're too young to remember any of the operation and if so then I think the birth experience itself would be far more traumatic.

For the "some kids lose their penis from circumcision": more end up with issues from not being circumcised or due to infection due to poor hygene.

Short answer: airy fairy reasons aside the cleanliness issue is enough to justify it.

Is this all you have to fixate on? SWEET JESUS, GE...

2006-05-09T00:39:00.000-04:00
Is this all you have to fixate on? SWEET JESUS, GET A LIFE!

A million dollars?

I'd cut off a small fing...

2006-05-08T23:08:00.000-04:00
A million dollars?

I'd cut off a small finger or toe for a million dollars! Is someone paying this kind of money for foreskins now?!

That pun was totally unintentional, sorry.

2006-05-08T22:33:00.000-04:00
That pun was totally unintentional, sorry.

With regard to the health benefits of circumcision...

2006-05-08T22:32:00.001-04:00
With regard to the health benefits of circumcision (health being my field): until recently you would have been right about disagreement within the medical establishment. It's been difficult to conduct good epidemiological studies on circumcision because there is always confounding. Who gets circumcised and who doesn't is not even close to random, so comparing circumcised men to uncircumcised men may produce differences unrelated to the procedure itself. To use the classic example, it used to be thought that circumcision prevented penile cancer, but the study on which that research was founded was conducted on an African population among whom all the circumcised men were Muslim. The Muslim men had fewer sexual partners, therefore fewer STDS, therefore a lower risk of penile cancer later in life. That created the false impression that circumcision was beneficial.

However, last year the first randomized clinical trial of circumcision was conducted to investigate its power to prevent HIV transmission. Two groups of adult male volunteers were assigned at random to be circumcised or not, and then followed. The circumcised group got 60% fewer HIV infections--which is astounding. The person who came up with a 60% effective vaccine against HIV would get a Nobel Prize.

It will be interesting to see what other research along these lines turns up with regard to other infectious diseases. But in general, there is a correlation between the amount of contact with the partner's sexual fluids and your risk of infection. That is why women are at greater risk from a sexual encounter than men; ejaculate remaining in the vagina for hours is more likely to infect than vaginal or anal secretions remaining briefly on the outside of the penis. Uncircumcised penises retain those fluids longer than circumcised ones.

So you see, the health considerations are not trivial. My own assessment is that the health benefits outway the miniscule risk of injuring the baby during the procedure.

By the way--holy hell there are a lot of comments on this post. Touched a nerve, there, Ben, well done.

Concerning the Jewish requirement for circumcision...

2006-05-08T22:32:00.000-04:00
Concerning the Jewish requirement for circumcision, it is a physical prodecure used to satisfy a spiritual covenant.

When a circumsized man has sex, he should look down and remember that his organ is part of a holy covenant and that he should use it for holy purposes. (This doesn't mean procreation only though, at least as far as Judaism is concerned. In Judaism, a primary purpose of sex is to increase the intimacy, both physical and spiritual, between husband and wife.) Circumcision reminds men (in a very obvious way!) that they are spiritual beings as well as physical ones.

Regarding the comment about "why mess with what G-d gave you?", why pierce or tattooo your body then, or even wear clothes? Sometimes what G-d gave you isn't perfect and should be "improved".

Another point: there is no comparison between male and female circumcision. Female "circumcision", or rather, mutilation, is done with the express purpose of limiting a woman's sexual pleasure so that she will remain faithful and a virgin for as long as possible, since sex is horribly painful for her. Male circumcision does not cause lifelong pain.

Last, there are different kinds of circumsicion, and it does not necessitate complete removal of the entire foreskin. Just a little bit can be removed to satisfy the biblical covenant. A long time ago, rabbis upped the amount taken off when hellenestic Jews began pulling their foreskins forward to hide the fact that they had been circumcised, and the rabbis did not feel that being Jewish was something to be ashamed of.

To Anonymous on Mon May 08, 03:35:22 PM:

I ...

2006-05-08T19:42:00.000-04:00
To Anonymous on Mon May 08, 03:35:22 PM:

I am sorry, but these two sentences together do not make sense to me:

"Basically, in order to be considered part of the Jewish people, a male must be circumsiced."

and

"Some Russian Jews have been circumcised, and others have not."

According to the first sentence, you cannot have uncircumcised Jews.

According to the second, some Russian Jews are uncircumcised.

Either those uncircumcised Russians cannot be Jews, or circumcision is not required in order to be a Jew.

Regards,
Philip

To Anonymous (on Mon May 08, 12:29:53 PM):

...

2006-05-08T19:31:00.000-04:00
To Anonymous (on Mon May 08, 12:29:53 PM):

"I'm really interested in this foreskin rebuilding and how painful/expensive it is??"

I have been using a skin tensioning device to stretch my remaining shaft skin, which is quite cheap but takes a lot of patience. It can be painful if I over-tension the device by mistake, but I release it immediately and have had no lasting damage.

Apparently there are also manual methods to stretch the skin. These are supposedly also quite effective, and free, but again require a fair bit of patience to see any progress.

The idea is to encourage the skin to grow (like on a person steadily gaining weight) without getting stretch marks (like many pregnant women get).

You can find more about this process at websites like http://www.norm.org.

Hope this helps,
Philip

Choice is an issue, but the bottom line is aesthet...

2006-05-08T18:35:00.000-04:00
Choice is an issue, but the bottom line is aesthetics, and everyone has their own. My wife likes it that way and I like her liking it.

I am a woman and I vote for cimcumcision.

...

2006-05-08T16:40:00.000-04:00
I am a woman and I vote for cimcumcision.

In my country men are usually not circumcised. I was used to that. But then I came to US and the two guys with whom I have been intimate were circumcized. Oh, I love it. It looks much more beautiful (that little hat is so ugly on a "natural state" member), I feel more inclined to be oral (which I suppose makes my husband a happier man), and it is far more higyenic. If every men knew how to properly wash its foreskin, that would not be a problem, but the sad truth is that lots of women get infections from their husbands because the men are not very careful when cleaning.

Going back to the esthetic issue, I love to look at my husband circumcized member, every morning when he cames out of the shower, every night when we go to bed. It is so beautiful.

Circumcision is a religious ritual. That's the way...

2006-05-08T16:11:00.000-04:00
Circumcision is a religious ritual. That's the way that it's described by people who accept it or don't question it.

Much closer to the truth it is a cultural acceptance of genital mutilation, a senseless, shameful imposition of the will of adults over the most vulnerable among us - the newborn. It is an assault upon infants, a violation, an act of brutality, an insane act of domination.

It symbolizes the imprisonment of the newborn into a religion, a culture, a world, where the baby will be conditioned, taught to exclude, taught to hate and taught to imagine superiority over those who are not mutilated. It's a baby's welcoming initiation into a culture of lifelong delusion and, typically, hate as a useful emotion.

To alec:
Would a well-educated person of the...

2006-05-08T15:35:00.000-04:00
To alec:
Would a well-educated person of the Jewish faith tell you that you are going to hell if you have foreskin?

No, of course not. (Most) Jews don't believe in hell.

However, "The uncircumcised male whose foreskin has not been circumcised, shall have his soul cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.' Genesis 17:1-14"

Basically, in order to be considered part of the Jewish people, a male must be circumsiced. It is considered as the covenent between G-d and the people of Israel.

Too often, this topic devolves into a discussion of the religious merits of the procedure. It is sufficient to say that some religions view it as a requirement.

To Philip:

There is no such thing as a Russian Orthodox Jewish denomination. Under the rule of the USSR, Jews could not practice their religion and circumcicion was forbidden. Some Russian Jews have been circumcised, and others have not.

With regard to decreased sexual pleasure, and the ...

2006-05-08T12:36:00.000-04:00
With regard to decreased sexual pleasure, and the loss of nerve endings, one very important thing to consider is that it's not the nerve endings that are releasing happy juice in your brain. It is your brain's interpretations of the aggregate of the signals being sent in.

In the case of infants, their brain is still growing and adapting so rapidly that it seems like the only side effect would be a loss of sensory resolution, rather than overall intensity.

For example, although you have *way* more nerve endings in your fingertip than your side, a jab to the side is more intense, and ticking is vastly more effective. But the fingertip has a higher resolution of sense.

(note - I'm just a student that has taken some neurscience courses, not an expert on this subject)

- David

I'm with all the people to leave things natural. ...

2006-05-08T12:29:00.000-04:00
I'm with all the people to leave things natural. However, I'm not really sure we will ever get a real answer on how much a circ affects sensation. A person who has been blind their entire life has increased hearing and taste to compinsate for the loss of their other sense. A person blinded later in life (post-development), doesn't usually experience the same hightened senses. I'm not trying to claim that the body is able to reproduce the full effects of foreskin, but it is probably different and it would probably be safe to assume that your circ-status determines what type of stroke/gliding motion feels best and becomes habitual (head stimulation vs. shaft stimulation). A man that has been uncirc during the sexual development portion of his life would probably have a much more dramatic change in sensation simply because his body hasn't adapted. I'm really interested in this foreskin rebuilding and how painful/expensive it is??

Great article.
I am uncircumsized and would N...

2006-05-08T12:27:00.001-04:00
Great article.
I am uncircumsized and would NEVER EVER circumsize a son when/if I have one.
Don't mess with nature - 2 million years of evolution trump 5000+ years of idiotic cultural tradition.
Interestingly, for the longest time, my foreskin was very tight and prevented me from being able to peal it back over the head of my penis when I had an erection. So my erect penis did look very different than an erect circumsized penis. I didn't even know that this was weird until I was in my mid-twenties. So I set about the task of "loosening" it up. Basically I just masturbated with lots of lube and got it to the point where it slid easily over the tip of my penis (took about a 2 weeks of a "session" or two a day).
After that I was blown away at the enhanced senstivity during sex. It was awesome. And still is.
And I've been with plenty of women - never has one of them had a problem with me being uncircumsized.
Circumcision is stupid - don't do it to your baby boys!
You can still be a good Jew/Muslim/whatever and keep your foreskin. . .

As a woman, I've been with both types and haven't ...

2006-05-08T12:27:00.000-04:00
As a woman, I've been with both types and haven't noticed that big of a difference as far as the skin part of it was concerned. There's a million other things going thru my mind during sex anyhow. As far as I understand, if a Jewish boy's family has a history of hemophilia, he is not required to be circumcised. I am not Jewish and do not know the whole history of the procedure within that religion. I think that would be interesting to know the history behind circumcision in different cultures. My sister is a nurse, and she says that if old guys don't clean out the skin, it can get kinda gross, and hence cause infection. I have heard of various evolutionary reasons for foreskin: it protects the penis (hence men with foreskin tend to have a more sensitive penis), and (I'm not making this up, but I don't remember where I read it) the foreskin acts to suck out any sperm that might be in the female from a previous male. I personally don't think I'd have it done to my son if/when I have one.

Comments on Ben and Alice: Circumcision: tell me, one more time, why this is ...

Hi, I'm a 23 year old white male in the US. My par...

Thanks for a great post. I will be directing the c...

WOW that was a lot of information. And actually ma...

Hi Ben - As a fellow Jew who was also uncircum...

>> groups of adult male volunteers were ...

It seems like you're right about Muslim circumcisi...

I think you're wrong about the 10-13 age of circum...

I am 28 and not circumcised. Around 2 years ago I ...

Pro Circumcision? Hey, you are one sick cookie. ...

Pro-circumcision.Reason: cleaner, looks be...

Is this all you have to fixate on? SWEET JESUS, GE...

A million dollars?I'd cut off a small fing...

That pun was totally unintentional, sorry.

With regard to the health benefits of circumcision...

Concerning the Jewish requirement for circumcision...

To Anonymous on Mon May 08, 03:35:22 PM:I ...

To Anonymous (on Mon May 08, 12:29:53 PM):...

Choice is an issue, but the bottom line is aesthet...

I am a woman and I vote for cimcumcision. ...

Circumcision is a religious ritual. That's the way...

To alec:Would a well-educated person of the...

With regard to decreased sexual pleasure, and the ...

I'm with all the people to leave things natural. ...

Great article. I am uncircumsized and would N...

As a woman, I've been with both types and haven't ...

Hi Ben -
As a fellow Jew who was also uncircum...

Pro-circumcision.

Reason: cleaner, looks be...

A million dollars?

I'd cut off a small fing...

To Anonymous on Mon May 08, 03:35:22 PM:

I ...

To Anonymous (on Mon May 08, 12:29:53 PM):

...

I am a woman and I vote for cimcumcision.

...

To alec:
Would a well-educated person of the...

Great article.
I am uncircumsized and would N...